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1/16/2003: Belgian Super Beings

The Belgians, aided and abetted by the usual NGO suspects, are continuing their efforts to judge the war crimes of the entire world, even the cases the ICC won’t touch—and of course, they want to start with Ariel Sharon: Human rights groups urge Belgium to keep war crimes law.

BRUSSELS, Belgium - Eight human rights groups, including Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch, urged the Belgian government Monday to toughen a ten-year-old war crimes law under which international leaders can be prosecuted.

The appeal comes amid legislative wrangling over two possible revisions to the 1993 law which must be approved before the parliament dissolves ahead of the May 18 elections.

Without the changes, the groups argue, the law would be useless in bringing war crimes cases to Belgian courts against such world leaders as Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon or Cuban President Fidel Castro_ both of whom had claims brought against them.

replies: 90 comments
Comments are open and unmoderated, although obscene or abusive remarks may be deleted. Opinions expressed do not necessarily reflect the views of Little Green Footballs.


#1   Calixto  1/16/2003 04:06PM PST

At least they want to target Fidel Castro too.

While Spain issued warrants for Pinochet, they refused to do so for Castro when a similar case was brought to their courts.

But is it me, or is this just another example of a nation-state trampling the sovereign rights of other nation states? Declaring that it can try the leaders of other nation states, in absentia, it seems.


#2   Charles  1/16/2003 04:07PM PST

You might even call it rather ... unilateral.


#3   Bob Dobbs  1/16/2003 04:13PM PST

I'm still waiting for LGF to post and comment on Sharon siccing the Mossad to kill US citizens on US soil. Where's the outrage?


#4   mommydoc  1/16/2003 04:23PM PST


Buy a clue.



If the legal standards are such that Sharon can be convicted of war crimes, then let them first convict every Arab leader plus about a hundred leaders throughout Africa, South America and Asia.

Similarly, if you want to boycott Israel, go ahead with it as long as you remain consistent and boycott every Arab state, half of Europe, all of Africa, parts of Asia and South America.


#6   Youth in Asia  1/16/2003 04:25PM PST



#7   Kalle (kafir forever)  1/16/2003 04:25PM PST

Of 90,000 Jews living in Belgium in early 1940, between 25,000 and 50,000 were killed during WW II (reportedly 40,000 had escaped or were deported to France by the end of 1940). Belgium surrendered to the Nazis after having pretended to fight for 18 days.

Which contemptible Belgians shall be held responsible and tried for the murder of more than at least 25,000 Jews?

Meanwhile, why do we need to explain to them that Sharon is NOT guilty of any \"war crime\" ? Arafat and his Palestinian co-terrorists, on the other hand...

Ceterum censeo, delenda est Mecca.


#8   Brenda  1/16/2003 04:29PM PST


Victor Davis Hanson on C-SPAN Washington Journal call in program 1/16, a discussion of the psychology of anti-war protestors.

Watch 30-minute segment online.


C-SPAN generally keeps Washington Journal programming up for a couple weeks, then it's gone.


#9   David A. aka Survivor of the attack on the Pentagon  1/16/2003 04:37PM PST

Mommydoc, Thanks for clue in #4. been trying to find that image of the Palestinian terrorist hiding behind the baby.


#10   kathyn  1/16/2003 04:38PM PST

#3 Bob Dobbs. I wish Mossad had found Mohammed Atta and the others before 9/11. You ask "Where's the outrage?" Well, I'm outraged but not by the same things you are, obviously.


#11   Tatterdemalian  1/16/2003 04:56PM PST

I'm certainly no defender of Castro...

But if these terror apologists and wannabe-world emperors came for him, I'd at least write my congressman on his behalf.


#12   Geepers  1/16/2003 04:59PM PST

mommydoc, That?s gonna be pretty tough for old bob, seeings how he doesn?t even have two nickels to rub together to make a wish.
?I wish, I wish, I wish I wasn?t so freaking stupid.?

As for the Belgians, Yeah, uh huh, ok, sure, sure, right. what? No, really, I was listening.

Help do some good and then scroll down for some laughs like:

JEWDO n. A traditional form of self defense based on talking one's way


#13   T. Jefferson  1/16/2003 05:00PM PST

The Sharon case was thrown out last June on the basis that the Israeli leader was not living in Belgium, raising doubts whether actions against other world leaders under the contentious law can go forward.



#14   Angelus  1/16/2003 05:00PM PST

well ken livingstone the mayor of london was just on the BBC giving praise to cuba. i really do not know what is going on with people i can not see how their thought process works how on earth can anyone can to the logical conclusion that cuba is good and america is bad ?? its insane it really is


#15   Geepers  1/16/2003 05:02PM PST

of a tight spot.

lost part of it. Must proofread.


#16   Azrael  1/16/2003 05:03PM PST

I once won an award for the most times the word Belgium in a serious screenplay, but some killer robots stole it from me, the bastards.


#17   Gene 6-Pack  1/16/2003 05:04PM PST

Do not bring an action against someone unless you have the bailiffs to drag him into the courtroom.


#18   Geepers  1/16/2003 05:05PM PST

Is there something wrong with this mike? [Tap] [Tap] Test, Test.

JEWDO n. A traditional form of self defense based on talking one's way out of a tight spot.


#19   Azrael  1/16/2003 05:06PM PST

"most times the word Belgium was used" what I meant to say.


#20   Montaigne's Cat  1/16/2003 05:29PM PST

The story of Europe's moral obtuseness goes way back and has many chapters. Her's one I just came across:

In the 1820's the Greeks revolted against their Islamic Turkish masters. Inspired by the Americans of 1776, they aserted the right to assume an equal station among the nations of the earth. (Sounds like Israel.) The response of European statesmen ranged from indifferent to hostile. In those days (unlike today) European romantics, like Byron, were on the side of the Greeks.

Europe's indifference shocked PRESIDENT JOHN QUINCY ADAMS, just as Europe's moral obtuseness in the Middle East shocks us today. In an 1829 essay Adams criticized

the more than STOICAL APATHY with which they regard the cause for which the Greeks are contending, and the more than EPICUREAN INDIFFERENCE with which they witness the martyrdom of a whole people, perishing in the recovery of their religion and liberty.

Of course, the real martyrs today are the Israelis.

There are more parallels in both the Islamic and the European positions. By the way, I cribbed this from "John Quincy Adams On the War We Are In" by Richard Samuelson in the current Claremont Review of Books, article not online.


#21   SecHumanist  1/16/2003 05:29PM PST

Whenever I'm arguing with an anti-Semite who claims that "Jews had it coming for being so arrogant" I always bring up the Belgians- the global epitomy of arrogance.

I still am amazed by the ever-present paradox of Belgian multi-culturalism and the belief that Belgians have the supreme right and duty to pass judgement on others.


#22   David Foster  1/16/2003 05:44PM PST

#7..."Belgium surrendered to the Nazis after having pretended to fight for 18 days."

In the days leading up to 1940, Belgium insisted on strict neutrality, and would not cooperate with France on joint defense planning. This played havoc with the entire French war plan, which was based on the assumption of Belgian fact, the French/Belgian frontier was not fortified, in part for this reason.

Of course, when they were invaded, Belgium called for French help, which was provided. I believe the Belgian troops did a credible job..but their King elected to surrender in the middle of the battle, with minimal or no notice to their French allies. This helped seal the doom of France.

Certainly, we can't blame current Belgians for the mistakes of earlier generations. But it's amazing how the same error patterns continue to recirculate.


#23   Geepers  1/16/2003 05:48PM PST

Montaigne's Cat (#20),

Fascinating story, Thanks.

This could be why the NEA doesn?t teach much American history anymore. Or world history. Or any history. Or much of anything else for that matter.

As for the European?s moral superiority, it?s like listen to a drunk try to convince you they?re sober. The harder they try the more you realize they?re sloshed, but they just can?t understand why you don?t believe them as they slobber and slur, while you try to ignore them.


#24   He Who Lurks  1/16/2003 05:52PM PST


"Ceterum censeo, delenda est Mecca"

My Latin's weak, what's the translation of the clause before the comma?


#25   surlybird  1/16/2003 06:03PM PST

#24 - A colloquial translation would be, "As for the rest, I say we should destroy Mecca."


#26   Kalle (kafir forever)  1/16/2003 06:06PM PST

He Who Lurks (#24) it means "Other than that my opinion is..." -- maybe "Further, I hold that..." is better. Plagiarized from Cato the Elder, with thanks.


#27   Matt G  1/16/2003 06:09PM PST

Keeping it on Belgium - Who the H#ll are they to accuse anyone of any crime against humanityafter the horrific, massive genocide they carried out in the Congo in the mid-late 1800s. Like the Armenian genocide, this was a dress run for Hitler, except nobody gave a shit (except some American and British Christian groups) being how the victims were Africans. They slaughtered hundreds of thousands, mained hundreds of thousands more, women, children, it didn't matter. The actual number could be much higher. For les belges to accuse anyone of genocide inexcusable.


#28   Studsup  1/16/2003 06:14PM PST

I want them to keep this law. I look forward to that day in the futhre that Bill Clinton is hauled out of some Amsterdam cathouse, extradited to Belgium and put in the dock for his war crimes: bombing Belgrade and various other sundry places for the purpose of moving his pending impeachment and credible allegI want them to keep this law. I look forward to that day in the futhre that Bill Clinton is hauled out of some Amsterdam cathouse, extradited to Belgium and put in the dock for his war crimes: bombing Belgrade and various other sundry places for the purpose of moving his pending impeachment and credible allegations of rape off the front pages.


#29   Kalle (kafir forever)  1/16/2003 06:26PM PST

Matt G (#27) good call on Congo. Other European colonial powers had to intervene repeatedly between 1900 and 1960 to ask the Belgians to stop their genocides in Africa (some estimates range up to 10 million dead). On the anecdotal front, reminds me also of a Louvain-educated professor who every year would look around the classroom (at the Swiss federal institute of technology), single out someone from Africa, and declare loudly: "I don't know why, but Africans always have problems with numbers." Turns out he had started his racist career as a Belgian slave-driver in the mines of Congo.

More recently, Belgium removed its soldiers from Rwanda in 1994, just when the genocide was starting.

Damn. The more I think about European history, the less I like Europe. Present idiotarian rulers and intellectuals are not helping. I need to get out of here.


#30   Donna V.  1/16/2003 06:28PM PST

20 Montaigne's Cat:

Very interesting story, however the Greek fight for freedom from the Turks differs from the present day ME situation in one notable respect.

Lord Byron, one of England's greatest poets, sided with the Greeks; hell, he actually fought for them. He was a passionate believer in democracy and liberty. Although he never visited our shores, he was also pro-American.

Compare him with Paulin, Baraka, that fool Andrew Motion, and the Fool's Circus that passes for the "intelligensia" these days.

(On second thought, don't compare him. The author of "Don Juan" would spin in his grave if he found himself being compared to the author of "Who Blew Up Da Owl? Who?" Sometimes I believe that some people offer living proof that evolution can go into reverse.)


#31   E. Nough  1/16/2003 06:28PM PST

Matt G asks:

Keeping it on Belgium - Who the H#ll are they to accuse anyone of any crime against humanityafter the horrific, massive genocide they carried out in the Congo in the mid-late 1800s.

That is, in fact, what the Belgian war-crime laws were written for. Their use against participants in other conflicts was an unintended consequence.


#32   Matt G  1/16/2003 06:30PM PST

Kalle, was it as many as ten million (gasp)? I knew it was a lot, but that's friggin insane. It boggles my mind how they have escaped any judgment of history for their crimes. Now like all with a guilty conscience, they see their own sins in everyone else. They completely raped, pillaged, slashed, burned, maimed, killed, plundered (I forget any?) and it's like they got clean away with it. disgusting.


#33   atomic conspiracy  1/16/2003 06:33PM PST

#3 Bob
Since when do peace hypocrites give a shit about American citizens being murdered? Since some of them became suspected terrorists, that's when.

Where were all the pious lefty legalitarians in 1980 when the Sandinistas sent a hit-squad to Paraguay to murder exiled dictator Anastazio Somoza? Unlike the Israelis' likely targets, Somoza had finished his career of oppression and thuggery and was just trying to live out his life in peace; something lefties are constantly urging for other murderers, notably their new sex symbol, Mumia. The Sandos and their US sycophants (most of whom couldn't find Nicaragua, let along Paraguay, on a map) held a big celebration.


#34   Matt G  1/16/2003 06:33PM PST

#31, ENough -
How did they write the laws for themselves? the congo genocide was well over 100 years ago. Who did they intend to charge? As I understand, no one anywhere has ever faced any charges for what Leopold did, and every one involved is dead as Kelsey's nuts.


#35   some guy  1/16/2003 06:34PM PST

Who decided that Belgium would be the center of the moral universe? Belgium? Other than slaughtering millions of Africans in the Congo, and acting as a speedbump for Germany on the way to invading France, I can't think of a memorable thing that that country has done, good or bad.

Is it because the EU is based there? (I think it's there).

Of course the first target is Sharon. Bush is probably next. Wonder when they'll go after North Korea's Dear Leader. (Seen that MSNBC link that's been making the rounds?) Probably any minute now. . .



#36   belize042  1/16/2003 06:37PM PST

BTW, are we surethe Belgians aren't really the French, in disguise.

Arrogance all out of proportion to their importance?
Lecturing others on morality, while wading in a moral cesspool themselves?
Great wine?
Umm...Okay, that's one for the French.


#37   Kalle (kafir forever)  1/16/2003 06:38PM PST

A summary of Belgian "rule" in Congo, brought to us by The Guardian (Le Monde Diplomatique has published similar reports):

"Locals were forced to collect the sap required to produce rubber or, it is alleged, have their hands or feet, or those of their children, cut off."

"Between 1880 and 1920 the population of Congo halved. The writer Adam Hochschild claims that 10 million people were the victims of murder, starvation, exhaustion induced by over-work, and disease."

Remember this next time you visit Brussels and observe the wealthy monuments built between 1890 and 1960.


#38   belize042  1/16/2003 06:38PM PST

Damn, the bold got away from me. Need to use that preview button. Sorry.


#39   Maine's Michael  1/16/2003 06:38PM PST

We just got a Belgian waffle maker a few weeks ago, thinking the Sharon thing was over with, and last week I cracked the PERFECT recipe for thin, crispy well browned outside that crackles as you bite into it, and a fluffy, light, souffle like interior that melts in your mouth.

And now I have to give this up? Jesus, this international law stuff can really interfere with Sunday brunch in an ugly way . . .


#40   Matt G  1/16/2003 06:42PM PST

Kalle, thanks for the 411. Absolutely insane, huh? Even if the number is off by a factor of 2 or even 10 it's a horrible, brutal crime. Who talks about it now, how can they get away with it? And they are the first to point fingers at others? Ughh. The cruelty is bestial, it's Nazi-like, it's sickening.


#41   Model4  1/16/2003 06:54PM PST

So when is Q going to weigh in on this? I seem to remember the time he took it on himself to put Capt. Picard on trial for the sins of others. Double standard in the making?


#42   SecHumanist  1/16/2003 07:01PM PST

#39 Maine's Michael -

Dude, I know what you mean! You know how tough it was for me to give up french fries?


#43   jaws  1/16/2003 07:02PM PST

IF the belgians want to indict Sharon, I"d like to nominate the ofllowing others for "War crimes indictments" :

Kim Jong II (N Korea)
The Ayatollahs (Iran)
Sadam and sons
Shiek Nasrallah
Mullah Omar
The Saudi Royal Family
Mugabe (Zaire)
Michael Moore (self explanitory, no?)
Robert Fiske (why not?)


#44   jaws  1/16/2003 07:03PM PST

IF the belgians want to indict Sharon, I"d like to nominate the ofllowing others for "War crimes indictments" :

Kim Jong II (N Korea)
The Ayatollahs (Iran)
Sadam and sons
Shiek Nasrallah
Mullah Omar
The Saudi Royal Family
Mugabe (Zaire)
Michael Moore (self explanitory, no?)
Robert Fiske (why not?)


#45   Geepers  1/16/2003 07:04PM PST

Donna V. #30,

Well, She may not be Byron, but not all artists today are wossies ? Joan Jett Entertaining the troops in Afghanistan.

Kalle (kafir forever) #26,

I?ve always preferred ?Other than that my opinion is??

Have you ever read Colleen McCullough?


#46   Erik  1/16/2003 07:04PM PST

You have to admire Sharon, if for nothing else, than that he is the world's biggest scapegoat, demonized worldwide and hated by hundreds of millions of very angry people. This is a role which he could have avoided by going into retirement.

#3. Let me get this straight: I should be upset because the Mossad threatensl kill Arab terrorists with Jewish blood on their hands in the US? It would be scandalous, of course, and that's why it will never happen, but if it will I won't be a bit upset.


#47   Kalle (kafir forever)  1/16/2003 07:05PM PST

Here is historical evidence of Belgian slavery and genocide in Congo (all in French): http://www.cobelco.o...

It's horrible.


#48   n  1/16/2003 07:05PM PST

#30 Donna V.

To have as poet laureate Andrew Motion

whose business is not verse, but self-promotion,

seems bad enough, but then it’s more appallin’

to think he’ll be succeeded by Tom Paulin.


#49   Kalle (kafir forever)  1/16/2003 07:12PM PST

Geepers #45, nope, not read her books. Should I?


#50   n  1/16/2003 07:12PM PST

Adam Hochshild, who also wrote an excellent book on the Soviet camps and Kolyma, has a very good book on the Belgian genocide of the Congolese called King Leopold's Ghost. Curiously, one of the most important persons involved in documenting and exposing it was a British diplomat, Roger Casement. He happened to be an Irish nationalist and ended up executed by the English during WW1.


#51      Matt G  1/16/2003 07:12PM PST


Thanks for the link. that's some site. Interesting that it's a French site, do the belgians themselves have any sense of it? I notice one professor is at Sciences Po in Paris (M'boko), is this studied in belgium at all, or is it swept under the rugs?


#52   Matt G  1/16/2003 07:14PM PST

N- wow, Kolyma and the Congo. Gotta admire the guy's courage and persistence, it has to be tough digging thru such sad histories.


#53   Dar ul Harbarian  1/16/2003 07:20PM PST

Pretty tough attitude for a country without any aircraft carriers


#54   Geepers  1/16/2003 07:25PM PST

Kalle (kafir forever) #49

Her Masters of Rome Series is truely insired. Great reads for anyone.


#55   Q  1/16/2003 07:26PM PST


#3. Let me get this straight: I should be upset because the Mossad threatensl kill Arab terrorists with Jewish blood on their hands in the US? It would be scandalous, of course, and that's why it will never happen, but if it will I won't be a bit upset.

Well, here's someone who is upset: the delicate though poisonous "fully veiled" islamic flower. Take note that the "modest" one goes as far as to use a four-letter word! This must've reached very deeply under her abaya: horribile dictu! the J-E-W-S defenidng themselves the way they see fit!


#56   piglet  1/16/2003 07:30PM PST

Kinda gives new meaning to the phrase:

You and what army?

I quess if Belgium wants to get sharon they will have to come and get him. :-)

In Holland "french fries" are belgion fries, one
fast food stall is called Manikin piss, with the image of the
little belgion boy pissing on their sign. Knothing says
fine dining like a "little pisher."

Damn and I was realy gonna try and be nicer about the
EU this week.


#57   Matt K.  1/16/2003 07:36PM PST

I am deeply disappointed there are no moslems accused of crimes against (mostly "infidel") humanity. Here is a short list: 1. Sadaam Hussein (everybody knows him), 2. Idi Amin Dada (butcher of Uganda, currently residing in Jeddah, Saudi Arabia). 3. Bulent Ecevit (former prime minister of Turkey in 1974, guilty of expelling two hundred thousand Christian Greek Cypriots), 4. Suharto, former president of Indonesia (slaughter of two hundred thousand Christian East Timorese in 1975-1999), 5. Omar Hassan el-Bashir, president of Sudan (killing and enslaving black Christians in the South), 6. Aslan Maskhadov, "president" of breakaway Chechnia, 7. Aliya Izetbegovic, former president of Bosnia and Hercegovina and his thugs (guilty of murder and expelling of thousands of Christian Serbs ), 8. Hashim Thaci, former commander of UCK(Kosovo Liberation(?!) Army (guilty of murder and expelling of thousands of Christian Serbs). Feel free to add more to the above.


#58   Matt G  1/16/2003 07:47PM PST

Matt K, no doubt you're holding your breath for the Belgians to arrest them and try them for crimes vs. humanity? Or maybe Spain?


#59   n  1/16/2003 08:11PM PST

I think it was Stalin that once, on being told the Pope had protested against something he did, asked: how many divisions does the Pope have? Well, what about Belgium?
BTW: the Congo, during the worst genocidal period, belonged officially to the King as a kind of private property, then he sold it to his country with a huge profit. That happened either immediately before or immediately after WW1.
But the Congo wasn't the Belgians only crime. The chaotic legacy of their "administration" is directly responsible for the troubles in Rwanda and Burundi. Belgium has an old problem: the Flemish speakers hate the French speakers. Well, it seems they have managed to export their internal ethnic conflicts to Africa, where the French backed the Tutsis and then yhe Flemish backed the Hutus.
(Once in Bruges I asked for informations in French and was almost lynched; when I switched to English everything went back to the normal.)
It's maybe the third or fourth time those Belgians are changing or adapting their laws to be able to prosecute Sharon. They are actually doing us all a big favour: they are showing precisely how the International Criminal Court would work.


#60   M. Upton  1/16/2003 08:32PM PST

When I think of Belgium, I think of all the little communist get togethers in Brussels. I'm glad I now have another new reason to dislike Belgium in their brutal slaughter of millions of Africans. David Livingstone's heart must have weeped a bit during that time (died 1873).


#61   me2  1/16/2003 08:33PM PST

Matt K,

How about Mohammed Adid, dreaded warlord and mass murderer from Somalia?


#62   Queasy  1/16/2003 08:33PM PST

#35 I can't think of a memorable thing that that country has done, good or bad.

Belgian chocolate?


#63   M. Upton  1/16/2003 08:36PM PST

Poor choice of words in #60. "I'm saddened I now..." would have fit more aptly.


#64   Geepers  1/16/2003 08:39PM PST

Lousy Belgian technology, there?s a mistake on every other post. Jeez.


#65   Matt K.  1/16/2003 08:40PM PST

Re #35 and #62, what about Belgian beer?


#66   me2  1/16/2003 08:47PM PST

# 56 piglet

You and what army?

Funny and true. No matter what their kangaroo (no pun, piglet) court decides, what can they do to Sharon with the mighty IDF between them?


#67   William  1/16/2003 08:51PM PST


The New York Times
December 7, 2002

Europeans Fear That the Threat From Radical Islamists Is Increasing

PARIS -- Political leaders and police investigators across Europe have concluded that the threat of terrorism from Al Qaeda and other radical Islamic groups is more serious than they had earlier assumed and may take years to neutralize.

Senior European officials dealing with terrorism say that recent investigations have uncovered surprisingly well-established networks of Muslim militants with potential to commit terrorist acts and affiliations that stretch across Europe to operatives in North America, North Africa, the Middle East and Central Asia.

Jean-Louis Bruguière, France's senior investigative judge dealing with terrorism, is among those who insist that Europe is at greater risk. "There is a probability of an attack in Europe in the coming months," he said. "The threat is much wider than Al Qaeda. It is like a spreading cancer. There is no structure, absolutely none."

Officials are concerned that Europe is increasingly vulnerable. For example, an October audio broadcast by Mr. Zawahiri on Al Jazeera, the satellite channel based in Qatar, specifically linked the threat to the April attack that killed German tourists outside a mosque in Tunisia and the suicide bomb in Karachi, Pakistan, that killed 11 French engineers.

"The young holy warriors have already sent messages to Germany and France," he said. "However, if these doses are not enough, we are prepared with the help of God to increase the dosage." That warning prompted officials throughout Europe to sound the alarm.



#68   William  1/16/2003 08:58PM PST

Sorry, #67 is not related to the topic; posted to wrong thread.

But still quite compelling, that Europe may be starting to 'get it'.


#69   n  1/16/2003 09:15PM PST

#60 Upton

I think the whole thing began somewhat later, but Stanley seems to have been a particularly ardent promoter of King Leopold's plans in the 1880s.


#70   Iron Fist  1/16/2003 09:30PM PST

#3, Bob,

Indeed, sir, indeed. I am by trade a freelance assassin/mercenery (technomerc, as it were), and Ariel Sharon did not approach me for a bid to snuff these bastards. I intend to complain to my mercenary union rep.

I should have been given an oppertunity to bid on killing them. I believe that I could have provided services comparable to Mossad at prices substantially cheaper (no fake visa required, for example).

Mossad keeps all of the fun work for themselves. It's all part of the Vast Zionist Conspiracy? No fun work for us regular mercs.

It really sux.


#71   Iron Fist  1/16/2003 09:34PM PST



#72   Model4  1/16/2003 09:40PM PST

William: I'm willing to bet the few sober voices who sounded these warnings in Europe many months ago are still getting bitch-slapped daily as bigoted knuckle-dragging racist xenophobes by the folks who are just now beginning to understand the problem.


#73   joe  1/16/2003 11:07PM PST

jaws #43

Mugabe is the prez of Zimbabwe, not Zaire.
But yeah, he should qualify.


#74   jaws  1/16/2003 11:22PM PST

thanks for pointing out my typo....I must've read another post and had Zaire in my mind for some reason...go figure.

What about Fiske, Moore, Arafat and Stanley Cohen....


Crusade Now  1/17/2003 05:16AM PST

Someone whould take the UK government to the ICC for war crimes against the Cornish and Welsh. They are the occupying power and have transferred thousands of English into our lands. THIS IS A WAR CRIME.


#76   Jan  1/17/2003 05:43AM PST


The cruelty is bestial, it's Nazi-like, it's sickening.

And so very Uropean. Portuguese, Dutch and French colonies´weren't much better. Seen in full context, 3rd Reich was no aberration in Europe - systematic brutal racism was the continuous trend in Uropean history until they were expelled by force from the lands they had enslaved. Only reason why Hitler stands out is that he made a big mess by attacking his neighbours and carried out his genocidal racism in his own home country.

Perhaps one day history books will fully show the true, ugly face of Europe, as a continent that went to commit brutal atrocities abroad (and to minorities within), but always needed foreign help to save it from itself when some part of it turned their aggressions from foreigners and minorities to their fellow Europeans.


#77   Dave  1/17/2003 07:00AM PST

Sharon is accused that he SHOULD have known the lebanese Phalagists would kill 1500 people in Saba and Shatilla.

The Dutch government DID know that Serbs were massacreing 75000 at Srebrenica and CHOSE to do nothing.

Isn't intentional disregard a worse crim than nagligent disregard?

Where's the indictment of the Dutch government that resigned over this scandal??


#78   Matt K.  1/17/2003 07:11AM PST

Re #77, Dave (Daoud?), seventy five thousand in Srebrenica? Where did you get this amount from? I guess from a jihadi web site.


#79   Dave  1/17/2003 07:38AM PST

oops typo 7500


#80   matt g  1/17/2003 08:13AM PST

stnley was acyually an agent of leopold. stanley was a cruel murderous thug, the myths about him are so untrue it's ridiculous. he was brutal to the africans and played a big role in the traged, according to african testimony. since he wrote the accounts of his travels it's no surprise he made himself a hero. history is written by victors , not victims


#81   grayp  1/17/2003 08:56AM PST

#61 - I think Adid is already dead


#82   Matt G  1/17/2003 10:12AM PST

Dave, you are completely right. The Dutch soldiers did nothing while the serbs carried out the massacre, they didn't even have loaded guns (would it have mattered?). It can't be denied, the Dutch gov't collapsed over the issue. The hypocrisy is nauseating.


#83   Maine's Michael  1/17/2003 10:12AM PST

Mr. Dobbs,

Does Becton Dickinson know that you are using their web access (and perhaps computer hardware) to post your offensive crap here?

Would they be pleased about it? I doubt it.

Should we tell them? I dunno. Maybe.



#84   n  1/17/2003 11:25AM PST

#82 Matt G

The Dutch government "collpapsed" many year later: indeed it collapsed itself at a very convenient time for opportunistic electoral reasons.


#85   Matt G  1/17/2003 12:20PM PST

n - and it collapsed amid allegations of incompetence resulting from the Srebrenica debacle. You're saying that was not a factor? THere were resignations from the cabinet when the scandal came to light and the PM stepped down.


#86   Fred  1/17/2003 01:17PM PST

#61 & #91

Adid was killed in an ambush a few years ago. His son, a former Unites States Marine, took over.

List of war criminals too much to list, however Sharon and Bush not among them.


#87   Fred  1/17/2003 01:18PM PST

Forgot the preview, that's United States Marine


#88   McKay  1/17/2003 04:36PM PST

Belgian courts lack jurisdiction to try Sharon (no matter how much they claim it)--this is not even remotely within their legal power. It's sort of like the Berkeley city council passing resolutions on foreign policy, except even fewer people care about Belgium. The Rwandans who were sentenced in Belgium under these laws should be allowed to walk, no matter what they've done, since the courts that convicted them had no jurisdiction (being the former colonial ruler is not sufficient). If the UN and the ICJ really cared about the integrity of international law, they would take the Belgian government to task for making a mockery of it. Economic sanctions, anyone?

(although this is the sort of thing the ICC could do. frightening!)


#89   NTropy  1/18/2003 06:09AM PST

Q:Which troll routinely spreads Arabic / Islamist propaganda?
A: Batman sidekick Robin (Burt Ward)


#90   Former Belgian  1/19/2003 09:12AM PST

In fact, there was (or still is) a lawsuit against Araf****t for crimes against humanity making its way through the Belgian court system. Some two dozen other world leaders had (or have) suits pending against them.

The best part about the Sharon lawsuit was that the prosecution wanted to use the testimony of Elie Hobeika, the Phalangist militia chief who actually commanded the Sabra and Shatila slaughter (a blood revenge action for the assassination of the Phalangist president-elect), against Ariel Sharon who allegedly turned a blind eye, while no attempts were made to put Hobeika or any of his henchmen in the dock himself. Hobeika --- who had no shortage of lethal enemies, having meanwhile defected to the Syrians --- was assassinated a few months later.

Aside from the rank hypocrisy and manifest multiple standards of Belgium's political and "human rights" establishment, there is a pathetic "mouse that roared" aspect about this sort of "judicial masturbation". I mean, do you see the Belgian State Security send out a hit team to kidnap Sharon and bring him to Brussels so he can be tried?

There is of course nothing mysterious about the support of small European countries for organizations like the EUnuchs and the International Kangaroo Court, which allow the selfsame small countries that host them to play disproportionately large roles in world affairs.

Finally, both the Belgian "crimes against humanity law" and teh IKC may have been created with the best intentions, but as Sam Neill so memorably put it in the otherwise forgettable Jurassic Park III: "Some of the worst things imaginable have been done with the best intentions".


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